This excerpt originally appeared in Pre Shift, a hotel industry newsletter. subscribe For more first-person accounts, advice, and interviews:.
Everyone needs a convenient and accessible place to socialize. However, maintaining a cafe, bar, restaurant or hybrid space that meets your needs can be challenging. In this three-part series, we are collaborating with: spectrum business We focus on third spaces and how their operators make them work.
What I’ve noticed about third spaces, loosely defined as accessible community hubs, is that they tend to take a hybrid approach, like cafes or bars that operate all day around activities like card playing or line dancing. For operators, retaining regulars in this way is clearly a win. But as Eater editor Nick Mancall-Bitel writes in a piece about restaurants that defy categories, maintaining a sense of community requires “negotiating space and service with customers.” Will Mester of Baltimore’s The Wren is quoted in this piece as saying, “At some point, we’ve got to get this out to the public, see what it does, and then see how it can be successful.”
Talking to Joeleen Ng, owner of Bivy in Brooklyn and Georgie’s in Manhattan, two cafes at New York rock climbing gyms that have grown through adaptation come to mind. With little experience in hospitality, Ng took over Bivy for climbers on Vital Brooklyn’s rooftops and figured out how to prepare in bulk and manage a team in the process. When she opened Georgie’s a few years later, she had no idea the cafe would become so important to non-hikers. Now, after becoming a popular remote work destination shared on TikTok, she and her team are continuing to experiment to make the all-day format the best it can be. I spoke with Ng about the balance between being a reliable place for people glued to their laptops and a gathering place for the community.
What prompted you to run a cafe at the gym?
I started climbing at the gym little by little after it opened in 2021. I was spending a lot of time there, and I was working at the company at the time. It was completely different because I was doing pharmaceutical advertising. After the pandemic, I wasn’t really sure what I wanted to do with my life.
I started cooking and baking a lot during the pandemic, experimenting with recipes. I had my first pop-up at Vital during one of their community days. They’re really good at all kinds of ways to reach out to the community and create outlets for people. After doing a few pop-ups, after one year of opening the gym, the original operator of the BB space decided to no longer operate it, so I applied for membership at the counter saying, “If anyone is interested in running this space, please send me an email.” I sent the picture to my partner and said, “Do you think I could do this?” He said, “Just try it!” So I did.
I came up with the idea for a cafe space and for some reason they chose me with little experience. From there it was just a whirlwind of learning. Getting set up and trying to learn all this without any background was difficult. The first year was a bit difficult, but we somehow survived and did well enough that when they were getting ready to open LES, they thought there would be a cafe space there and asked if I would be interested in something like that. It was an exciting opportunity for me to be involved from the beginning and have a say in how the space is built and more.
You don’t have much knowledge about hospitality. How did you learn how to run a cafe?
Unfortunately it was a lot of improvisation. When I first opened, I was the only one working, and it got to the point where I thought, “This is not sustainable, I can’t do this on my own.” So, initially we hired three people, and then we thought, “Oh, now we have to come up with a process to keep everything as consistent as possible,” and “Oh, now we’re making five times as many sandwiches, so now we have to keep up with the production and preparation of that.” It was a lot to realize that (I) had more and more work to do.
I also reached out to some of my old managers, as I used to work random waitressing and catering jobs in college. Most of the things I talked to my old bosses about were employee management. I have never worked with so many people. When I worked at a company, I only had one person to report to, but now that I have a team of 15 or 20 people, it feels a lot different. It gets a bit more complicated because so many employees started out as climbers before wanting to work in a cafe. So everyone has this level of comfort and familiarity with the space, so now when we make it a work environment, we have to separate the employee-employer relationship from our relationship as climbers and friends.
The hardest thing for me was letting go of some control and realizing that I couldn’t do everything myself. But at the same time, we had to put standards and procedures in place to make sure things were as consistent as possible. Fortunately, by the time I opened Georgie’s, it had been two and a half years since I started Bivy, so I had a better framework for how I wanted to work and it was easier to get started.
Were there any rules about how things should be done at the gym?
They are a great partner in that they give me free reign on what to serve and how we want to do it. We have a management agreement with them, so we pay a portion of what we make each month in licensing fees. But that gives us a lot of freedom in the way we operate.
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The second cafe, Georgie’s, is located on the Lower East Side, very close to Chinatown. Have your neighbors influenced your menu?
clearly. I grew up on Long Island, but every Sunday I would go to church (in Manhattan’s Chinatown) and bring my grandmother to stay with me. She lived a 10-minute walk from the gym. I spent a lot of time there. So I knew I wanted to make this a space that was kind of an homage to the neighborhood and area that I remember growing up. We source our pastries from the bakery I went to every week growing up (Manna One). Many of the Hong Kong (menu items) are a tribute to my grandmother who immigrated there in the 60s. I was very happy to be able to introduce Hong Kong cuisine to people.
There is a stereotype about climbers. He’s like white granola. But climbing is definitely a diverse sport. What are your thoughts on George’s role in the gym? Do people come in to buy pastries and drinks and also get an introduction to climbing?
Coming from Bivy was really interesting. Because Bivy is only open to climbers and caters to gym people. I thought Georgie’s would too, but after a few TikToks (which featured us) we had a blast.
Now most of our customers are not climbers. It’s really fun to watch from behind the counter while people wait for their drinks. I see them looking over the railing and pointing, “Oh, wow! Look at them!” It’s really cool to be able to introduce people to that community. But sometimes people don’t even realize there’s a gym underneath.
Yes, many people are glued to their laptops. But we’re trying to think of ways to get people to sign up for yoga classes, go to the gym, or do other activities. Just because I think the synergy effect can be great.
It also operates as an all-day venue, serving coffee and pastries in the morning and beer in the evening. Do you have a strategy for transitioning from day to night?
Honestly, we’re still figuring it out. I am constantly amazed at how long and late people will work. We’re trying to figure out the bar menu and how we’re going to roll it out. When we first opened, I had the idea of draft cocktails and a low-maintenance bar situation. I still want to do that, but the atmosphere of the space has the feel of a work-from-home or study room, and continues until after 8pm. People are spending time on their laptops, which isn’t ideal for bar situations where people want to chat and socialize. So we’re still trying to figure that out.
And perhaps this is where the event begins. Can you tell us about the event Georgie is hosting?
We run small business markets, pop-up events, quizzes and more. Even CPG brands just getting started are sampling this space. An old friend is one of the founders of Green Tile Social Club, and cultural events like mahjong nights are important to me. Because it’s a way to reflect on the culture and introduce it to people.
When we opened I knew I wanted it to be a gathering space. I don’t think there’s any other cafe in Lower Manhattan that has as much space as we do. Making good use of space (and being a good steward of it) was really important to me. I also wanted to create an opportunity for small businesses and people looking to get established to do the same thing the way I started.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
